tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5502671101756463249.post2274749233997030932..comments2024-03-09T11:34:22.175+00:00Comments on The History Girls: 'Last Look - The Truth about Crimea' by A L BerridgeMary Hoffmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06241989732624913706noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5502671101756463249.post-82681785094710204062014-08-21T20:49:53.514+01:002014-08-21T20:49:53.514+01:00I'd echo what Penny said. This has been a fasc...I'd echo what Penny said. This has been a fascinating discussion, which only goes to show how difficult it is to judge what the truth is, and what the facts are. Sue Purkisshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09084528571944803477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5502671101756463249.post-81184794009221750672014-08-21T12:38:20.099+01:002014-08-21T12:38:20.099+01:00This is a riveting post, Louise, and explains much...This is a riveting post, Louise, and explains much that I hadn't understood. The ensuing discussion between you and Lily was equally fascinating providing, as it does, different perspectives that are vital to take into consideration.<br /><br />I'm afraid I still haven't had a chance to read the copy of Into the Valley that you so kindly sent me but it's next on my list!<br /><br />Very best wishes,<br /><br />Sarah VernonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5502671101756463249.post-66536621805163381842014-08-21T08:29:10.545+01:002014-08-21T08:29:10.545+01:00Louise, thank you very much for this thought-provo...Louise, thank you very much for this thought-provoking post and and to both you and Lily for your valuable discussion.<br /><br />There's so much written here that I'm sure many readers are like me - people who want to go back and read through it all a third or fourth time, so please don't take any lack of comments as indifference to all you are both saying. <br /><br />You both show that "news" is never as simple as what is shown on screen or - often - in the print media, so thank you for offering these wider views and such a variety of evidence. <br /><br />Meanwhile, Louise, thank you very much for all your History Girls posts, including this one. You'll be much missed!Penny Dolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16386668303428008498noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5502671101756463249.post-71340303999779361212014-08-20T16:23:45.153+01:002014-08-20T16:23:45.153+01:00Thanks, Lily - that's really interesting. Mass...Thanks, Lily - that's really interesting. Mass manipulation of the psyche is a very real phenomenon, and I've seen evidence of that on both sides here. I can well believe that happened in Crimea as well as anywhere else, and the fear is that we may never know it. A May Gallup Poll found that 82% of Crimeans felt the referendum was a true reflection of their wishes - but can we be sure they're not being subjected to the kind of propaganda that's designed to make them think they made the right choice? This, I think, is why I lay such stress on the first conversations I had on all this - ie before the propaganda kicked in and anyone knew where this was leading.<br /><br />That's why freedom of information is so important - and indeed, discussions like this one. But I'll admit I'm being selfish in seeing this from a Western point of view, and what frightens me most is that I have never ever seen such blatantly skewed coverage in the British press as I have over Ukraine. We've always felt so smug about 'those poor people' subjected to propaganda, and a lot of us don't realize it's now happening to us too. <br /><br />But you're right - the answer is not to just keep pushing our own single point of view, but to engage and listen and try to find such reliable primary sources as we can. You've helped me a lot.<br /><br />Because, as you say, it's damaging. Everyone I've spoken to agrees with you - that the fragility of the racial mix is a recent thing, and something has happened to split the brotherhood between Ukrainians and Russians. Some Russian media blame all of it on the EU 'making Ukraine choose', but I do think it started a good 3-4 years earlier. Some might be sheer Nationalism / scapegoating, but there's also this very sinister side to Right Sector propaganda when they're claiming Ukrainians aren't Slavs at all, but actually Aryans - and that's been going on for a while.<br /><br />Solutions are going to be hard to find. But this is a very valuable conversation for which I'm very grateful, and I do hope you'll get in touch so we can talk some more. I know you're a fellow writer, but to my own avaricious writer's brain you've also just become a primary source. :) :)alberridgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15986443240923520466noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5502671101756463249.post-26264687168368466722014-08-20T15:47:13.396+01:002014-08-20T15:47:13.396+01:00thanks for your comments Louise - rather more resp...thanks for your comments Louise - rather more respectful than mine I'm afraid, so thank you for that.<br /><br />I do see that you are presenting the Russian point of view, and of course it is important. I'm afraid I still don't rate your source materials, because I have seen too many fakes and I don't really believe any of them any more. I believe what I see with my own eyes, but of course that is limited, because I have my own biases and can’t see everything. What I did see in Crimea in March was not people voting at gunpoint. I saw what I think is a worse violation – a mass manipulation of peoples’ psyches. People were panicked into voting by relentless propaganda. They were not given time to think anything through – what would being annexed by Russia mean for their jobs, their education, thei rights, their benefits, their car and house registration, their ability to travel. At first the referendum was supposed to be at the end of may, then that became the end of march, then it became the middle of march. Why? So as to deprive anyone of time to to think. Posters appeared everywhere with terrifying images of a nazi threat. There was not a single poster offering an opposite viewpoint. Ukrainian TV was shut off, so there was no alternative viewpoint from TV. In any democracy there is a week or day of ‘quiet’ before voting, so as to give people breathing space to make up their minds. There was nothing like this in Crimea. There were armed men everywhere, even if they were all so ‘vezhlivy’. How can you calmly make a decision when there are armed men everywhere and media screaming at you that neo-nazis are about to come and rape your children?<br /><br />Of course Russians have a right to their point of view, and to have a say in where they live. I think its quite likely (though not guaranteed) that if the referendum had been properly organised, completely legal and above board, the majority would have voted to join Russia. But what I saw was people not being given a fair chance to make up their own minds. And what makes me really furious is that after living in Ukraine for years, I can say that there was no fragile ethnic mix. Sure, people had serious arguments, but no one would have DREAMED of picking up a gun because one was Ukrainian and the other was Russian. This conflict has been artificially stirred up by mass disinformation. Right sector was not a serious threat in 2011, or even in march 2014. However, I have to say that as a result of all the disinformation, Ukrainians are being radicalised as Russians were radicalised. Propaganda, I am learning, acts as a self-fulfilling prophecy. <br />Lily <br /> Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5502671101756463249.post-15564697213927933742014-08-20T15:12:38.743+01:002014-08-20T15:12:38.743+01:00Hi again, Lily,
Just briefly - I've corrected...Hi again, Lily,<br /><br />Just briefly - I've corrected to 'Crimean Tatars', so thanks again for pointing that out.<br /><br />You're also right about the offensive political slogans on the Khersun video, so I've added a rider to tell readers to ignore them and concentrate on the actual primary source material. I hope that helps.alberridgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15986443240923520466noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5502671101756463249.post-87135945395526026462014-08-20T14:47:04.824+01:002014-08-20T14:47:04.824+01:00Hello, Lily, and thank you for commenting at such ...Hello, Lily, and thank you for commenting at such length. I can see you feel very strongly about this, and entirely respect your view.<br /><br />I can also agree with you on certain things.<br /><br />1. You're quite right that I should have used the name 'Crimean Tatars', and I do apologize for that. Because my work is set in 1855 when 'Crim-Tatars' was the expression used by the British, I'm afraid I automatically typed the more familiar name. Again, my apologies for any offence caused.<br /><br />2. It's true that I was only presenting one 'point of view' here, because it's the one that has NOT been heard in the British media. The alternative viewpoints are the 'official narrative', and everything I wrote should be seen in context of that. If I had had more space, there is easily enough material for a complete book on this!<br /><br />3. You're right that I've had to generalize a little over WWII, and I wish I'd taken more space to consider other viewpoints, but (for once) this was about the Russian experience and I needed to concentrate on that.<br /><br />I can see your fear that this is all hearsay, but I can assure you I checked everything I could. I would have written this post months ago, but wouldn't do it until I could find outside confirmation of both the Kherson Pogrom and the Channel 5 leaked conversation broadcast on 27th Feb. These were both things I had only heard about, and it was not until I'd tracked down a video of the one and a transcript of the other that I felt able to go ahead.<br /><br />There are things I haven't seen myself - and you're right, I haven't personally witnessed any of the 'Nazi' attacks on ethnic Russians. However, I learned about these things as early as 2011, and really don't see why anyone would bother to lie to me all the way back then. They have, of course, since been confirmed by other events, and I posted a video of the 'Hang all Russians' chant on a previous post.<br /><br />I can also promise you that I do NOT use Russian propaganda as a source! There is much I disagree with in the 'Russian' cause, which is why I was careful to say 'I do not agree with all of it'. I do however feel very strongly that all sides should be heard, and that has NOT been happening in our Western media.<br /><br />It's also important to remember that this is presented as a 'point of view'. I personally had enormous sympathy with Maidan at the start, and there were (as you know) many genuine activists there right from the start. However, that does NOT change the fact that outside forces (US and EU) exploited them, or that the later Nationalist involvement was bound to tear this very fragile ethnic mixture into two violently opposed camps - or how it was bound to look to those opposed to the move in the first place. What I'm trying to establish is <i>how this looked from the point of view of ethnic Russians</i>, and why we shouldn't merely dismiss them as pawns who voted at gunpoint.<br /><br />That said, I do appreciate your taking the time to present another view, as it's good that this too should appear on the blog. People need to be able to make up their own minds on these things, and the more information we all have the better.<br /><br />Thank you again for your time on this. Please do feel free to contact me via the website if you feel there are other things that need to be addressed, as I am always interested in learning more about this area.<br /><br />Respectfully,<br />Louisealberridgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15986443240923520466noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5502671101756463249.post-73679482065794463922014-08-20T12:54:43.919+01:002014-08-20T12:54:43.919+01:00continued:
“The media ignores them, history will ...continued:<br /><br />“The media ignores them, history will almost certainly ignore them, but even if it's only here in this one blog, I did just want the voices of the people of Crimea to be heard.”<br /><br />Well, Russian media doesn’t ignore them! But I do wonder who you mean by ‘the people of Crimea’. I applaud your aim, I too think it is really important for everyone’s voices to be heard. But you haven’t presented all voices here. Where are the Crimean Tatars? Where are the ethnic Russians who have left for mainland Ukraine? where are the young civil activists now under arrest in Moscow although they are Ukrainian citizens? You have presented one side, without checking either historical or current facts. There is an information war going on, and as a result of it thousands of people are suffering needlessly (I am in east Ukraine now, seeing all the stupid, senseless, heartbreaking suffering). I know that Ukraine is guilty of some outrageous propaganda, as is Russia (and how!). I know there are some despicable far right elements in Ukraine, as there are in Russia. I know that there is no such thing as the hundred percent ‘right side’ and ’wrong side’. I think our job as writers is to show that. I understand that you want to oppose what you see as one-sided media coverage and bias. But in my view you have just presented an equally one-sided and biased version yourself.<br /><br />respectfully<br />Lily Hyde <br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5502671101756463249.post-10054561739645892332014-08-20T12:51:43.583+01:002014-08-20T12:51:43.583+01:00continued from previous comment:
“The Russian peop...continued from previous comment:<br />“The Russian people of Crimea were cut off from their history, their heritage and nationality, and suddenly became a minority in a land that basically hated them. The hatred would be understandable if it were directed against Stalin or the old USSR, but it was aimed at living people whose only crime was to be born of at least one Russian parent […] I heard all about this and the Nazi taunts of ‘Moskals!’ ‘Vatniks!’ on my first visit to Crimea...”<br /><br />So you ‘heard all about’ this hatred and prejudice and being cut off from heritage and nationality when you were in Crimea. Did you see it? I would wager a large sum of money you didn’t, because nothing like this happened in Crimea (or indeed mainland Ukraine back then). Crimea has always been Russian-speaking. Russians are the majority there. No one stopped Russians from having Russian Orthodox churches, Russian Cossack organisations, holding pro-Russian meetings. No one stopped them from travelling to Russia, even getting Russian passports if they wanted. The mayor of Sevastopol was a Russian citizen. Ask you friends in Crimea, really ask them, in detail, insist: how did they feel hated? How were they stopped from speaking Russian? They’ll tell you about that law you mention, that banned them from speaking Russian. That law never existed. (The proposal - and it was stupid proposal - was to revoke a 2012 law that granted Russian status as a state language in areas where Russian speakers were a majority.) They’ll only be able to tell you what they saw on Russian TV, on youtube, on the video loop of the same, one, burning Berkut officer on Maidan that the Crimean authorities showed on gigantic screens in the centre of Simferopol and Sevastopol day after day after day in March. <br /><br />Yes, that Berkut officer was set on fire. Yes, policemen died, so did demonstrators, so did innocent bystanders. Maidan was a mess, and I don’t suppose we’ll ever get to the bottom of who gave the order to the snipers to shoot, and at whom. <br /><br />That’s an interesting opinion piece you link to from the Telegraph. It’s headlined ‘fresh evidence’ that the West funded Maidan. If you read the piece, the evidence comes from “one of my readers” who “heard from a Ukrainian woman”. I don’t call that evidence. I don’t call the ‘Korsun pogrom’ video evidence either. (Again, if you are going to write about places as if you know of what you write, please try to get the names right). You’re a historian. How can you take seriously a video which begins by listing ‘pogroms in Ukraine’ carried out by Ukrainian nationalists in the civil war? The civil war took place in Russia and Ukraine – they were the same country then – and pogroms have happened throughout Russian history. How can you not notice the bias that is in this video right from the opening shot? The propaganda obscures any real events that might have taken place, and completely fails to ask why, how, who, when. <br /><br />I don’t understand why you, who were not even there, are so ready to believe Maidan was a Western imperialist plot and not a spontaneous uprising against corruption, while you cannot countenance the possibility that Russia orchestrated what happened in Crimea though years of funding for civil organisations, through relentless propaganda (the tools you accuse the West of using in Kyiv) even before it sent in soldiers. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5502671101756463249.post-82263325381288764812014-08-20T12:47:20.457+01:002014-08-20T12:47:20.457+01:00Wow, A.L. First of all, I know what you mean, I to...Wow, A.L. First of all, I know what you mean, I too feel like people are sick of me banging on about Crimea. But one has to speak up for a place one loves and for people one loves, and I understand that is what you are doing in this post. But I cannot let your version of what happened in Crimea go unchallenged. And honestly, I am amazed that you as a writer who has delved deeply into history can present so one-sided a picture. I think the job of a writer is to try to look at things dispassionately as much as possible, try to see both sides, delve deeper than the news and the propaganda, and most of all undertand that history is never one simple narrative of the ‘good’ side and the ‘bad’ side. Yet you call your post ‘the truth about Crimea’ – as if there is one truth and you are the only person who knows it. Then you go on to unquestioningly repeat some of the most absurd and vicious and damaging claims of Russian propaganda about Maidan and Ukraine and Crimea.<br /><br />Thes are just a few of the things you say which I have to take issue with. <br /><br />“I must stress that not all Ukrainians and Crim-Tatars collaborated with the Nazis, but the fact remains that the only significant resistance to Germany’s invasion of 1941-4 was made by the Russian people of Crimea. The role of Kerch is often ignored, but the resistance held out for months in the obscurity of the catacombs until they were betrayed by local Tatars and murdered underground by poison gas.”<br /><br />First of all, they are not Crim-Tatars, they are Crimean Tatars. If you are going to write about a nation of people as if you know of which you speak, it would be nice to get their name right. And it would be nice if you had not underlined not all, since for me that seems to imply that most did collaborate. How do you know – did you count them? What do you mean by ‘the Russian people of Crimea’? Both the Red Army and the partisans were not Russian, they were Soviet. They included Crimean Tatars, Ukrainians, Armenians, Azeris, Moldovans… and Russians. How do you know the partisans were betrayed by local Tatars? (and do you mean Crimean Tatars here, or Kazan Tatars, or what? If you are going to cast aspersions on a nation that has already suffered incredible hardship for their alleged ‘betrayal’, you need to be specific). <br /><br />Yes, some Crimean Tatars collaborated with the Nazis. So did some what I guess you would call ‘Russians’ - in case you weren’t aware, a whole Red Army division defected to the Nazi side. But I don’t want to apportion blame or say which ethnic group was more ‘loyal’ than another, because I think it is a stupid and dangerous and reductive way of looking at history. That’s the way Stalin looked at it, for geopolitical reasons. He deported the entire Crimean Tatar nation for their alleged ‘betrayal’, and settled non-Tatar Soviet citizens in its place, and thus created the time-bomb of Russian or Soviet against Ukrainian which exploded this year into senseless hatred in Crimea. <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5502671101756463249.post-57360948398015590332014-08-20T09:34:02.375+01:002014-08-20T09:34:02.375+01:00What an amazing post, thank you. I have learnt so ...What an amazing post, thank you. I have learnt so much this morning and I will definitely read the Tolstoy. Bonne Chance xCarol Drinkwaterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05837854482139736944noreply@blogger.com