tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5502671101756463249.post2646394036769849054..comments2024-03-23T12:38:46.260+00:00Comments on The History Girls: Blinding with Science or Charming with Curiosities? by Katherine LangrishMary Hoffmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06241989732624913706noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5502671101756463249.post-52366585354865366852013-10-10T20:19:54.769+01:002013-10-10T20:19:54.769+01:00I totally agree and love your illustrations from G...I totally agree and love your illustrations from Georgette Heyer, which I have been reading since a teenager and never needed to look up a word, as I absorbed them into my vocabulary via the context. <br /><br />Reading to my kids I try not to stop to go into explanations of a strange word, unless they actually ask. It interrupts the flow of the story too much, and most often the word makes sense eventually by what follows. <br /><br />Now I just hope they will love Georgette Heyer as much as I do - tried my 13 yo on it recently and she found all the extended family scenarios at the beginning of Toll Gate too dull to wade through to reach the rest of the adventure.Kithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11594062064082350697noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5502671101756463249.post-1585803465108252512013-10-07T09:51:34.310+01:002013-10-07T09:51:34.310+01:00Thankyou all - Marjorie especially. A four in han...Thankyou all - Marjorie especially. A four in hand could well, as you suggest, have given rise to that saying. Fascinating! And illustrates my point that we can arrive at correct meanings via roundabout routes! Katherine Langrishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12529700103932422873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5502671101756463249.post-80917078785223881282013-10-05T16:38:37.570+01:002013-10-05T16:38:37.570+01:00I agree, too - both with your break down of how we...I agree, too - both with your break down of how we (both as children and adults) deal with unfamiliar words.(and I love Georgette Heyer's books - I think being 'a complete hand' might come from driving - able to manage 4-in-hand or 6-in-hand - but either way, the <i>meaning</i> is clear from context - he's in control and skilled!)<br /><br />I also feel that if new books are 'weeded' then it surely also makes it harder to then understand other, older books - I'm sure that when I first read Jane Austen, it helped to have read Georgette Heyer and have gained an understanding of terms which Austen, writing for her contemporaries, didn't need to clarify.<br /><br />I may have to re-read 'The Nonesuch' now. <br />(I guess slang among the upper classes may have been fairly consistent - if you (or your local friends) visited London or Bath for the Season, or maintained correspondence with people who did, you might keep abreast of the slang.Marjoriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09234975039675044712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5502671101756463249.post-16304321221565260422013-10-05T13:03:54.122+01:002013-10-05T13:03:54.122+01:00Well said in your summing up of the different ways...Well said in your summing up of the different ways children dealing with an unknown or archaic word. I do rather feel that if all interesting historic words and phrases - especially the specialised vocabulary of shipping or horses and carriage riding or fashions, and so on - are neutralised, much flavour of a time will be lost.<br /><br />That said, the young teen reader could easily feel surfeited by too many such terms , especially seen in a visual form. Pictures can remove the need for precise descroptions, whether correct of not.Penny Dolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16386668303428008498noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5502671101756463249.post-15869210966999023892013-10-04T22:22:08.077+01:002013-10-04T22:22:08.077+01:00Whoops, that's "only checked the dictiona...Whoops, that's "only checked the dictionary..."Sue Bursztynskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09362273418897882971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5502671101756463249.post-260663600123225732013-10-04T22:20:54.751+01:002013-10-04T22:20:54.751+01:00I once recited Jabberwocky to my literacy class to...I once recited Jabberwocky to my literacy class to make a point. They were kids who were reading at Grade 2 level in their teens. But I recited it with great dramatic flourish, much to their delight, and said to them that however weird the words, you could work out that it was abut a young man fighting and killing a monster. And they could use the same method to read ordinary books.<br /><br />And one of our ESL students who badly wanted to read Twilight worked out meanings from context and Bly checked the dictionary when she couldn't. She read all four books in as many weeks and her reading level rose several years by the end of that year.<br /><br />But you shouldn't overdo it. Kids who don't want as desperately as that one to read something may simply give up after a few pages.Sue Bursztynskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09362273418897882971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5502671101756463249.post-21297340722230525842013-10-04T14:53:02.895+01:002013-10-04T14:53:02.895+01:00What a great blog. Couldn't agree more. I just...What a great blog. Couldn't agree more. I just read Caroline Lawrence's PK Pinkerton mystery with my daughter and part of the pleasure was discussing what the Wild West lingo meant. Rachelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05305955561056589712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5502671101756463249.post-33651565639549442532013-10-04T12:24:55.361+01:002013-10-04T12:24:55.361+01:00Excellent post, and I also love your rant, Austin!...Excellent post, and I also love your rant, Austin! I recently re-read The Unknown Ajax, and I adore the Regency slang. I even find myself using various expressions in conversation, which rather confuses people, and it has been known to creep into my own modern day novels. <br /><br />Thank goodness my own editor is a tolerant and perspicacious man.Lesley Cookmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10699182779296799170noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5502671101756463249.post-61532969151465477992013-10-04T12:10:17.941+01:002013-10-04T12:10:17.941+01:00Quite right and brilliant as usual. Wish everyone ...Quite right and brilliant as usual. Wish everyone could see this post. Am going to tweet it in an attempt to get it out there!adelehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15826710558292792068noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5502671101756463249.post-88975131179434975312013-10-04T10:51:07.881+01:002013-10-04T10:51:07.881+01:00Exactly, Roz! Libi, it's interesting that you...Exactly, Roz! Libi, it's interesting that you got a little tired of the Regency slang in 'the Nonesuch' - perhaps that book is particularly heavy with it - but I bet you had no problem understanding most of it. It's a good point that colloquialisms must have differed, region to region, as they still do. (To this day, girls are lasses in the north and maids in Devon!) Austin, I adored your rant! It's an editor's job to question whether an obscure word is really needed, but it's an author's job to keep it there if we really want it! Katherine Langrishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12529700103932422873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5502671101756463249.post-82077015489305861212013-10-04T10:30:30.279+01:002013-10-04T10:30:30.279+01:00Love this post! I also remember reading that line ...Love this post! I also remember reading that line from The Flopsy Bunnies when I was very young, and marvelling at 'soporific'. I didn't know precisely what it meant but I loved it. I could guess its meaning from the context, but its unfamiliarity gave it power; it was special. It added more enjoyment to the story - not only could fun things happen, they could be said in unusual, secret ways.<br />I've even come across this timidity with unfamiliar words in adult fiction. My agent objected to me using the word 'vatic' on the first page of my novel. The book wasn't full of these unusual words; just this one was a little unusual, but I felt you could understand it from its meaning. And it suited the scene, themes and mood perfectly. <br />Sometimes, of course, unfamiliar words obscure. At other times, they add a flourish, a flirtation with a fresh form of expression. Although language must do its job, it isn't just literal. Roz Morris aka @Roz_Morris . Blog: Nail Your Novelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10088813423467048081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5502671101756463249.post-81769794366721277292013-10-04T10:29:31.380+01:002013-10-04T10:29:31.380+01:00Thanks for a great post. I usually love it when I ...Thanks for a great post. I usually love it when I come across an unfamiliar word in a historical novel - it usually leads to my discovery of heretofore unknown information that I can file away for future use in my own Regency mystery series. Interestingly, though, I just recently finished Georgette Heyer's The Nonesuch and I rather quickly got tired of her use of so much Regency slang.<br /><br />I also questioned whether older people, people living far from London, etc., would be so up to date with the latest slang. I can't keep up with all the new terms, even with my computer, so I'm curious if there was a significant difference in the speech of Yorkshire gentry, for example, and the tulips of London.Libi Astairehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06403952950759678334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5502671101756463249.post-28191798205845064062013-10-04T09:23:49.253+01:002013-10-04T09:23:49.253+01:00Totally agree with you, Katherine - and Austin. Un...Totally agree with you, Katherine - and Austin. Unfamiliar words delighted me as a child (and since I read much more than I spoke, I was famous for my mispronunciations when I tried to use them.) Some children MAY be made anxious by unfamiliar words because they have unfortunately been made to feel anxious about reading. But they can still enjoy having more challenging stuff read to them. It's not a reason to dumb down everyone's reading. <br /><br />At around the age of 9 I discovered The Black Arrow and thought it the most exciting, romantic book ever - and I loved the 'tushery'! I re-read it recently and my favourite line is, "Alack!" cried Alicia. "I am shent!"Ann Turnbullhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06484265041343702129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5502671101756463249.post-20664388355139474262013-10-04T08:46:02.108+01:002013-10-04T08:46:02.108+01:00I wrote the above in such a fury that I let a drea...I wrote the above in such a fury that I let a dreadful error escape me: 'there' instead of 'their' <br /><br />Apologies but I could barely see for red.Austinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08789849765972235409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5502671101756463249.post-25604867038278730872013-10-04T08:42:09.233+01:002013-10-04T08:42:09.233+01:00Hear, hear!
This very topic came up recently on a...Hear, hear!<br /><br />This very topic came up recently on another blog - I forget which. I hope it is a sign that there is going to be a backlash against the last twenty years of progressively 'dumbing down' children's literature.<br /><br />Good Lord above, when I was a child I adored the discovery of new words and phrases! Wasn't that a healthy percentage of what reading was - and still is - all about?<br /><br />How are children meant to expand their minds and develop their vocabularies and discover the rich possibilities of a well-turned phrase if they are restricted to a diet of prose made from an off-the-shelf vocabulary of three hundred words or less that everyone already knows?<br /><br />Not to mention the fact that those who would have it that way have failed to understand a large part of the meaning of language and the subtle ways in which it communicates experience, texture, sense and significance: namely, through the sound and rhythm of words - not merely there intellectually attributed 'dictionary definitions.'<br /><br />What, in the name of the gods, would these editors, politicians and self-styled 'educational experts' do with Jabberwocky? Or Riddley Walker? Or, for that matter, William Shakespeare? Chaucer? Dickens? These last authors all considered suitable reading for children when I was a child - and all challenged and delighted me and instilled in me a profound passion for language.<br /><br />And what of Tolkien? Or Wodehouse? I ADORED the language - only partially understood - of Bertie Wooster's narratives!<br /><br />And if the jargon of sailing must be expunged from West of the Moon, then surely it must also be expunged from Swallows and Amazons, too. And a fat lot of sense that would then make!<br /><br />The editor who requests that I remove such language for such reasons shall hear from me naught but the following riposte:<br /><br />"'Sblood, you starveling, you elf-skin, you dried neat's tongue, you bull's pizzle, you stock-fish! O for breath to utter what is like thee! you tailor's-yard, you sheath, you bowcase; you vile standing-tuck!"<br /><br />And without doubt, will understand none of it.<br /><br />Damn their eyes.<br /><br /><br />Austinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08789849765972235409noreply@blogger.com